The red army of china didn’t really take prisoners.
Woah watch out. You might offend Red Scare propagandists
Your brain on for-profit prisons:
Wow China really dropped the ball on this one.
13th is a really good documentary. Indentured Survitude
More creepy US prison statistics.
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Which part of comparing incarceration rates do you take issue with? Why is acknowledging the difference “mindless?”
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That’s all this post was about, though, a comparison showing that per capita (and totally), incarceration rates in the PRC is far lower than in the US Empire. The purpose is to highlight the hypocricy of those who hold the PRC as more repressive than the US Empire, when the opposite is abundantly clear to anyone looking at hard metrics such as incarceration rates.
You decided to make a pivot in a completely different direction and just complain about Marxists, which just screams that you want attention more than anything. I suppose I’m providing that for you if that’s what you want, but really it’s just good practice to call out the incoherence of anti-communists.
The top score would be Gaza tho with 100% of its population being prisoners of Israel.
Israel is trying to zero out that number as quickly as they can.
Statistics are Khammaaaaz!!!
1 843 701 US prison population
1 686 108 China prison population
The trick is to always assume “China is lying about its internal statistics” and inflate whatever number they give by an arbitrary large percentage. 1.7M is obviously an under-count because the CCP is always lying about everything.
Also, you can do some broad brush “Everyone in Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, North Korea, and Taiwan are prisoners of the Chinese state, so actually that’s over 60M people” napkin math to make the numbers look better.
I think this is a good rule of thumb in general. When statistics agree with my preconceived notions, I consider them trustworthy, and if not, I assume that reality lines up with what I expect. For example, the referendum in held in the Baltics about leaving the USSR ended in favor of leaving, which I think is a good example of a trustworthy statistic. But the subsequent referendum in the remaining members ended in favor of staying in the USSR, and I think that’s a little suspicious, don’t you?
When statistics agree with my preconceived notions, I consider them trustworthy, and if not, I assume that reality lines up with what I expect.
I… thought you were being sarcastic. This is an obvious and severe flaw to have in one’s rational thinking.
prejudice (noun)
1. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions.
2. An adverse judgment or opinion formed unfairly or without knowledge of the facts.With much love and respect I ask you to please read the remainder of my comments in this thread.
oic. Carry on, comrade.
Why would it be suspicious? Different members of the USSR had different national conditions, some were quite nationalist and opposed being a part of the USSR, some were more internationalist and wished to retain the Soviet system. In the following years, there have been many studies verifying that of those who lived through Socialism, the majority wish it had remained over the devastation Capitalism brought to the majority of people.
How can I say this in .ml-ese? Hmmm, try asking the folks who actually lived in those places.
It’s suspicious because it disagrees with my preconceived notions about communism.
The opening of the Soviet Archives backs up these claims. If your pre-concieved notions about Communism are negative, I really recommend giving Blackshirts and Reds a read if you’ve got the time and willingness.
See now there you’ve made a crucial error. You’re recommending a book which, while it has some criticism of the specifics of how the USSR implemented socialism, on the whole it’s quite positive about the idea of establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat in general. Obviously that disagrees with my preconceived notion that humans are greedy, and that therefore capitalism is good, so I would never read a source that contradicts this, because I would have to dismiss most of it outright. And that’s just a hassle.
I don’t follow, the author being positive about the working class running society rather than privledged elites having dictatorial control a la Capitalism doesn’t mean you need to dismiss the facts it brings up outright. Are you saying that, as someone biased towards Capitalism, you dismiss any criticism of Capitalism and any positive opinions on Socialism outright? If so, I can’t imagine how you live your life in other areas that contradict your current understanding!
To return, I don’t at all believe it’s suspect that the majority of people wished to retain Socialism, and this fact is further cemented by this same general notion being repeated over and over again in polling.
No, Occupied China doesn’t control DPRK or ROC
If we play that game we can’t trust American numbers either so the whole conversation becomes pointless
If we play that game we can’t trust American numbers either
😏
ILikeNazis
In what way is the PRC “occupied China?” The people overthrew the nationalist KMT dictatorship, who then fled to Taiwan and murdered all of their opposition among the people that were living there at the time.
On its own that’s misleading, you should be using the per capita stats.
I’m sure he hasn’t got a clue how many Chinese there are, or where China is.
All that matters is China bad, commie badPer capita is misleading, it over represents low populations and under represents high populations
When you use it, it makes Canadian cities appear more violent than American cities as an example
Per Capita shows that China has a lower total prison population than a country much smaller than it in population. Both per capita and total counts are lower in the PRC despute having several times the population.
Yes, I can read the graphic and my own post
Per capita isn’t misleading, it’s more relevant than totals.
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What’s your point, here? Marxists are bad because China has a higher population, meaning per capita comparisons are more accurate when directly comparing with the US?
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Blue MAGA denying facts, literally the actual numbers and think that we just “feel’ it’s true” are pretty much the same as MAGA.
And yet, the USA still the 5th highest in incarceration numbers and the highest in absolute numbers.
I’d say that tells you enough
what “slavery is allowed if the enslaved person is a prisoner” does to you
Worthwhile note to people too lazy to click on the link is that this is the 2021 version. In June 2024 (which is linked at the top of the linked article) the numbers look a little different but not much better for the US.
It’s too hilarious it can’t be intentional that the top country not America is El Salvador which is where you’re questionably sending all your black and brown people.
Nothing more American than privatizing and off-shoring our concentration camps.
Preach
LOL just calculated for my country and we’re at 100 per 100000
Interesting how it’s southern states at the top eh?
Can’t have anything to do with the fact that the US legally allows prisoner slavery right?
Winder what the race ratio of the prison population is.
This is the country routinely accusing other countries of having “prison camps.”
Interesting how it’s southern states at the top eh?
Legit amazed California wasn’t higher on the list. They’ve been doing mass-incarceration at an industrial scale since the 70s. But I guess the population is big enough that the per-capita statistics work out.
States like Alabama, Louisiana, and Oklahoma have such small and anemic populations and dedicate so much of their domestic budget to incarceration that they’re basically giant publicly subsidized slave plantations.
Isn’t that graph a bit misleading
In what way is it misleading? It seems straightforward to me.
I thought the states were being compared to other countries. Didn’t look properly on the phone.
They are. Just ALL the states are significantly worse than most countries.
Yes but that doesn’t really say much. We know it’s bad in the US. If all German states were bad that would still only tell you that in average it’s bad in Germany
not really. the fact that Louisiana has nearly double the rate of Oregon is significant. so is the fact that
racistsouthern states are at the top and are the ones beating the us average.
Even if, I think it’s still a valid comparison as it’s a rate.
They are, and I agree it’s misleading. It’s implying that it’s somehow shocking that the individual states of the county with the highest incarceration rate in the world also have a high incarceration rate. If it was absolute numbers, it would maybe make a point. As it is, it’s stating the extremely obvious and framing it as “look, it’s even worse than you thought”.
It shows which US states contribute more to the US incarceration rate and clearly shows that even those that contribute the least are above the majority of the nations’ incarceration rates. The latter is not obvious without visualizing the data in this way.
If it was absolute numbers, it would maybe make a point.
If you have a population with 10M people and 20,000 of them are prisoners, that’s significantly less concerning than a country with 100,000 people of which 10,000 are prisoners. You can’t make an apples-to-apples comparison between Texas and Wyoming with raw head-count.
it’s somehow shocking that the individual states of the county with the highest incarceration rate in the world also have a high incarceration rate
It’s shocking that the state of Louisiana has a full 2% of its population in jail. That’s twice the US national baseline.
Yes, but that is not how the graph is framed. It’s framed as “look, if we put US states on a graph with other countries, they have such a high incarceration rate that there are almost no countries even on the graph!”
If it was honest and just trying to compare the incarceration rate of US states amongst each other (and the national average) it wouldn’t be titled “[…] in U.S. states and all countries […]”. It’s a clearly manipulative title.
The reason that a graph with this title could maybe make a point if it was absolute numbers is that most U.S. states’ population is less than most countries, so if individual states were still high on such a graph, that would be shocking.
It’s framed as “look, if we put US states on a graph with other countries, they have such a high incarceration rate that there are almost no countries even on the graph!”
It’s certainly possible that you have one big state with a high incarceration rate - Texas or California for instance - that’s throwing off the national average. States are free to set their own penal process. It’s not a given that every state has a globe-shattering incarceration rate.
Saying “It’s not just one or two states with astronomical incarceration rates, its the whole country contributing to the total” indicates something notable about the politics and culture of the country as a whole.
Wyoming could have an incarceration rate of 0% without affecting America’s position as a carceral state. That it doesn’t is meaningful.
Wait… isn’t ~1,000 per 100,000 much closer to 1% than 2%?
It’s still mind boggling, not trying to minimize it.
Thank you that’s what I meant, I just couldn’t put it into words properly.
How is a per-capita incarceration rate, with a reference to the superset included directly on the plot, misleading? Other than including more than El Salvador for the sake of external reference, which is almost certainly a size issue.
I thought the states were being compared to other countries. Didn’t look properly on the phone.
They are (which is the point) the countries are in orange USA (as an overall average) and el Salvador are the only countries that make it on to the list.
They are! The other countries are so far down on the graph they are not visible
Well yes because the US as a whole has a high number. If you added cities they would have even more in the high numbers. What’s the point about that?
Because US states have populations and areas comparable to other countries. Just the US topping the charts is expected. How many states you have to get through to see other countries is interesting.
See? This makes it look like it’s as misleading as I said. This is prisoners per 100.000, that means it doesn’t matter how populous a state or country is. That’s exactly why comparing states with countries is misleading. For every state that has a higher number than the US average there’s states that have a lower number.
UHHH THATS JUST BECAUSE CHINA IS LYING HAHAA YOU REALLY BELIEVE THEIR OWN NUMBERS LOL??? oh third parties provided that data…. UHH WELL THEY DONT HAVE IPHONES AND THEYRE ALL POOR. oh… wait, they do have iphones now and china has a stronger middle working class than the US and canada?
hold on i need to go watch my tv for a couple hours to get a few more talking points but im gonna come back to this post and fucking own you
CHINA ONLY PRODUCES GARBAGE BTW. oh what? They have actually quality products, they just ship out cheap garbage to suckers?
One is labeled as authoritarian dystopia while the other as a beacon of freedom, it’s like we live in the upside down.
This happened right before the cultural revolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine might have helped cut down the potential prison population…
First of all, I’ll take the honour of using .world’s favourite word: whataboutism much?
Second of all, wow, there was a hunger episode as a consequence of bad ecological policy on a preindustrial society?!
BTW, life expectancy in China at the beginning of the socialist revolution was 35 years, by the time Mao died it was above 55. Those are hundreds of millions of lives saved.
You can read the chart: incarceration rate per 100,000.
Let me address a few things. First, I didn’t post my response because I think the incarceration rate in the U. S. is OK. It’s not. Incarceration of non-violent criminals is especially aggregeous. Private for profit prisons are a horrible idea.
I responded because the OP posted an image comparing the incarceration rates of the CCP’s cultural revolution to the current U.S. incarceratiom rate. The implication is that because the per-capita incarceration rate was lower in China during that time, it was a nicer place to live than current-day America. That ignores the part where the Chinese government starved to death 15,000,000 - 55,000,000 people, or put in Americanized terms: somewhere between the entire population of Pennsylvania to the entire populations of California AND Pennsylvania.
Claiming that a per-capita measurement normalizes all factors, makes a sampling error based on survivorship bias. It is highly unlikely that the overlap of people who starved to death during the CCP’s famine had the same incarceration rate of those who did not. I’m guessing rich and party aligned individuals had a much lower rate of both starvation and incarceration.
This would certainly be true in the U.S; Incarceration rates are much higher for low-income individuals: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/income.html. Low income individuals are also more likely to starve to death in a famine* (*citation needed). Now imagine if the United States government starved to death the poorest 10,000,000 people in the U.S. and then started bragging about how much it’s per-capita incarceration rates have improved!
The CPC did not starve to death millions of people. There was famine in China from natural causes, and the CPC did their best to alleviate that as best they could, even if millions ended up starving despite their best efforts. The PRC is still a developing country, and this was ever more true during the Cultural Revolution. The Cultural Revolution had its fair share of issues, the modern CPC doesn’t look fondly upon it, but the famine would have happened even without Communists in charge, and in fact it did! Famine was common in China before it industrialized under the CPC.
There was famine in China from natural causes
From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine
It is widely regarded as the deadliest famine and one of the greatest man-made disasters in human history
(Emphasis mine.)
Also, regardless of the reason my other points stand: having millions of poor people starve to death will reduce you incarceration rate, and people might choose to live in a country with a higher incarceration rate if it means they don’t starve to death.
The Great Chinese Famine was caused by a combination of radical agricultural policies, social pressure, economic mismanagement, and natural disasters such as droughts and floods in farming regions.
From Wikipedia. Western scholars exaggerate the human factors and minimize the environmental, which were the cause.
From Prolewiki:
It is true that agricultural production decreased in five years between 1949 and 1978 due to “natural calamities and mistakes in the work.” However, during 1949 and 1978, the per hectare yield of land sown with food crops increased by 145.9% and total food production rose 169.6%. During this period China’s population grew by 77.7%. On these figures, China’s per capita food production grew from 204 kilograms to 328 kilograms in the period in question.
China did not have a famine because of communism. China had a natural famine and while some policies strengthened it, others minimized it.
To be perfectly clear, I don’t subscribe to the notion that communism is bad and capitalism is good. I think every socio-economic system has pros and cons and are prone different forms of degredation and usurption.
I think the people leading a country and the people that comprise its society have a larger impact on life than their system of government.
With that said, a government is ultimately responsible for the safety and well-being of its people.
It’s the system that determines how its run, not the people at the top. Your analysis is teetering into Great Man Theory territory, which is derived from Idealism, not Materialism. The mode of production is primary.
Secondly, yes, the government is responsible. Is the government also responsible for drought, though? What should be judged is that, as I stated, food production was dramatically improved, and the government eliminated famine in a country where famine was common prior to Socialism.
For what it’s worth, capitalism is progressive compared to feudalism, but regressive as compared to socialism.
Yeah but everyone knows the US has more people per capita than anywhere else
More people per people
The trick is to call fertilized embryos people and use dead women as incubators
More people…per capita…🤯
Nicely done, I approve.
My brain had to do a hard reset after reading that. Thanks, I hate it, lol
maybe they really mean it, where companies are people but not capita
I’m not saying the US isn’t shit with for profit prisons, but I’m not believing shit for any number that China provides on pretty much anything.
Interesting because the number comes from the Institute for Criminal Research and not China, but go on with your total and complete acceptance of US propaganda and unfound hatred of China.
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We don’t believe our governments propaganda
You say, after regurgitating a bunch of your governments propaganda
fucking hell you’re a propagandized racist loser
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Real easy to get the numbers though
To be fair, China is 2nd in overall prison population by country globally, so it’s not like their numbers are complete bs. I’m sure there is some fudging in what constitutes as a “prisoner” when they have “re-education camps” though. That said, the US’s numbers are fucking insane.
they have “re-education camps” though
Do they, though? You, as a champion of human rights in China, are aware that the reeducation camps are closed for years now, aren’t you?
I’m sure the government that lied about wrongly imprisoning people in the first place is totally being truthful now.
I wouldn’t take the Chinese or US government’s claims at face value.
If by “the government” you mean “The Washington Post” and much more western media, then sure
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/23/china-xinjiang-crackdown-uyghurs-surveillance/
There’s an example article, a quick google for “China closed reeducation camps” will throw more results if you feel like doing a bit of research on the brave defence of human rights that you champion.
I mean, googling that does not give the result you claimed it would. In fact, it talks more about how they opened up different types of camps instead
It talks about how they opened up prisons, which is exactly what this post takes into account. There are more people in prisons in the US than in the entirety of China.
You clearly have done 0 research on this topic, and until 5 minutes ago you believed that the reeducation camps were still open and ongoing, despite them closing years ago. Educate yourself on the conditions of the people who you pretend to care about, or stop with your concern trolling.
