Blackbeard, Colonial Revolutionaries, Jesse James, Billy the kid, Butch Cassidy, Wild Bill Hickock, Guy Fawx, Al Capone, John Dillinger, Bonnie & Clyde, Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, Jeffery Dahmer, OJ Simpson, Mike Tyson, Donald Trump.
I don’t think Manson, Gacy, or Dahmer are idolized.
Simpson and Tyson are idolized for their non-criminal activities, not because they’re criminals. They’re not famous for being criminals, whereas most of the others are.
Trump is definitely an interesting one though…lol
Dahmer is one of those who had prison groupies. As do the Columbine shooters, Harris and Klebold. Apparently there’s a certain kind of chick that gets lubed up for mass murderers.
That’s a good point. I wouldn’t call that mainstream, though.
I’m not sure if Al Capone gets support the way that Walter White does or if he’s more of a Robin Hood…but a lot of the “heroic criminals” in US folklore (especially the criminals of the “wild West” who robbed banks and supported the poor) are purely the Robin Hood types.
Dahmer’s fans are crazy. As are the Columbine Shooters’ fans. But Robin Hood-types could generally be supported by the general person without raising an eyebrow these days.
I was thinking about that as I was typing them up. It’s really hard to draw a line on how criminal they are, or fame vs infamy, etc.
Yeah. The serial killers are definitely infamous, but nobody normal is thinking “Boy, we could sure use someone like that again”.
…but someone who goes around stealing from big banks and insurance companies while also destroying people’s mortgages (so they don’t have to make payments on their houses)? I’m sure some people could get behind that.
Especially with the reaction we’re seeing to the murder of the health insurance company CEO. I’m sure people have been coming up with lists of other deserving CEOs.
You just started naming criminals.
Gotta be honest, that’s literally what outlaw means
I think outlaw also implies being on the run.
Being an actual outlaw literally means you have been declared outside of the law for your presumed crimes. Anyone can kill you without question because society has washed its hands of you.
On the way to that status you will typically rack up some warrants and bounty offers.
Or not, depending on how corrupt the judge was.
I’m not arguing but there was a clear delineation where it went from like 20s outlaws to like 1990s pop culture criminals.
That would be “time”… you go through history and eventually you get to 1990.
I think it crossed over with Manson which was 60s/70s but I think your point stands.
Some of the criminals after the crossover were cult leaders though…
Came back around with Tyson and Trump (depending on your preferred political party).
I noticed that too. And I think it has to do with WW2. Hitler and his allies were the bad guys, and it seems there was a period going into and after the war where didn’t pay much attention to any other criminals. During this time we saw the birth of Super heroes, and we rallied around the good guys.
I mean, yeah. The whole outlaw bit sort of implies crimes.
What did you expect?
George Floyd
I think George Floyd is mentioned by people to highlight how out of control the police in America are. They are thugs with badges, and they need to be reigned in, but that’s not likely to happen due to America leaning more toward “bootlicker” these days. George Floyd was murdered by shit cops. He should be remembered so we can hold bad police actions accountable. Fuck the police.
That’s more of a “minor crimes don’t deserve execution” thing
Bonnie and Clyde, Killdozer man, Al Capone, Christopher Dorner, Billy the Kid to name a few.
There are a few different common themes amongst them, either functioning as part of a gang or as a lone wolf, Bonnie and Clyde captured attention for the romantic twist attached to it.
There are also greater numbers of outlaws during periods where laws are hard to enforce due to remoteness and isolation (old west) or due to the laws being flaunted by basically everyone due to the laws being considered ridiculous (prohibition).
The key common theme is that they are viewed as fighting against an (what the public view as) unjust system, though often it’s more to do with their goals coincidentally aligning with the publics perception of an unjust system.
The guy who shot that CEO, is probably the most recent example…
Its part of the western tradition. Bonnie and Clyde for example.
PS. I’m not american.
They are believed to have murdered at least nine police officers and four civilians.
Yes, and Bonnie and Clyde also robbed banks and destroyed mortgages, freeing people from their debts. I have no idea if that’s true, but that’s the myth
Is it just america? robin hood. guy fawkes.
Ned Kelly is an Australian icon, primarily known for an armoured shoot out with the cops.
Guy Fawkes isn’t idolised, the festival is about burning him alive and even if you don’t agree with that his reasons for doing what he did were shit
Ah. I guess V for vendetta made me think it was celebrating him.
That was an alternate history where he was successful and celebrated.
Brazil has Lampião and Padre Ciço. … Though Ciço is less ‘criminal’ and more ‘heretic’. He’s considered a saint by many nevertheless.
Guy fawks is British
Yes, that is the point
I’d love to hear where you think Robin Hood is from
I thought both were from the uk.
“is it just America? Guy Fawkes” means “is it just america? Guy Fawkes is an example of an outlaw idolized by Americans who is not himself an American”
yeah I thought he was idolized by ukians and maybe europeans.
They are
Yeah I can’t refute stinkys comment without actually living there or at least having a friend or something I stay in close contact with or something.
From da 'hood, obviously.
“is it just America? Guy Fawkes” means “is it just america? Guy Fawkes is an example of an outlaw idolized by Americans who is not himself an American”
Woody Guthrie - Pretty Boy Floyd
Yes, as through this world I’ve wandered I’ve seen lots of funny men Some will rob you with a six-gun And some with a fountain pen
And as through your life you travel Yes, as through your life you roam You won’t never see an outlaw Drive a family from their home
From the Youtube comments: “This is the acoustic version of ‘Fuck the Police’”
He was seen positively by the public because, during robberies, he burned mortgage documents freeing many people from their debts.
Shit seems relevant.
Also, Stagger Lee, an old blues standard about a violent badass that has been interpreted and reinterpreted for over a century
I tend to think that Trump is getting idolized, too.
For being a criminal or by being a grifter?
Grifting is often illegal too.
There are people that will idolise all of these, even though they may be a minority. I don’t think that this is what OP meant.
Jesse James.
Billy the Kid.
Jeffery Dahmer.
Charles Manson.
Al Capone.
Baby Face Nelson.
And many, many more.
Out of all these, though, the only one I have seen still be idolized in some capacity is Dahmer. Women seem to love him, despite the fact he was gay. And a cannibal.
Bonnie and Clyde
also the most prominent idolized today isn’t Dahmer; it’s the guy who just got elected for president
Do people really idolize dahmer?
Yes
To that extent, Trump
I still think that guy needs to go fuck off a cliff, but he fits the premise right?
You can see it in our media, even comic books. The Punisher is wanted by law enforcement all the time. Just look at the United Health Care shooting. Guy does what the Punisher does and he instantly becomes an American hero.
How is Jesse James not at the top of this comment section?
Billy the Kid.
The rap genre
Well classic rap.
Today’s rap doesn’t have as much bragging and flexing. Not to say it doesn’t happen, it’s just not as significant as classic rap.
Today’s rap doesn’t have as much bragging and flexing
What rap are you listening to🤨? And what do you define as classic rap?
Yeah today’s rap definitely has bragging and flexing, it’s just sort of flanderized from “I’m a thug who is tough, fight hard to get what I’ve got, look at me now” to “I’ve got money, I get women, I get fucked up”
Hehehe
The entire eastern genre
the entire western genre
Hehehe
Bonnie and Clyde! Billy the Kid! I haven’t yet met the cute got girl who doesn’t have a list of favorite serial killers!
Was Robin Hood a real dude?
He is an established folklore character, but it may never be proven whether he was a real person or no.
True. But whether his actions were inspired by real events or purely fictional the character demonstrates the tendency of people to venerate the righteous outlaw.
Watched a thing on him recently. Sure he was, cause apparently he was from Doncaster, not Nottingham.
