Apple has always been a closed ecosystem, doing things “their way”. When they only sold computers, it was a niche company, with a niche audience. Then they started selling music players and phones, and they became a popular company.
The blue vs green bubble is just an American problem, that still use SMS as their main messaging protocol. The rest of the world use messaging app, like WhatsApp. It’s truly fascinating watching these events from outside the US.
We are lucky the EU is forcing them to adopt standards and not abuse their power. Maybe we’ll see some progress. New iPhones coming with USB-C is a good start and, ironically, I think it will make them sell more phones. But regarding blue vs green bubbles, the massive adoption of WhatsApp in the EU (fuelled by the greed of European Telcos charging per SMS) made us immune to this discussion.
It’s interesting: in all my ignorance, my perception is that it’s the Germans the ones that feel more and more like the Americans (other than the British). But it may be just a wrong perception on my part. I honestly don’t know for certain.
Edit: a small note: you still gave the Greens and the Pirate Party to the EU Parliament, that are the best thing to ever happen to it. :D
But remember: instead of going with DOS, or a PC compatible system, they developed their own OS. It’s always been closed. And doing things “their way”.
I’ve been a Mac user for more than 30 years, and I’ve always been isolated from the PC ecosystem. No PC Card was ever usable with a Mac, until they changed to Intel processors in 2005, and even then, you didn’t have drivers for those, you have to rely on some outside development. You could barely read PC files, and most PCs couldn’t read Mac files without external software until Apple changed to Mac OS X in 2001. PC peripherals were incompatible (different connectors and electrical requirements) until Apple introduced USB with the iMac in 1998 (and the PC ecosystem caught up with it).
While Macs were (somewhat) upgradeable, you needed to buy Mac specific parts to do it, made by Apple approved vendors.
So, It’s always been a walled garden. I know, I was there before the iPhone, before the iPod. They’re doing nothing different from when they started. The difference is in society: internet appeared, and we now expect everything to work with everything. We expect to be interconnected. But Apple? They always liked to be their own thing, to be different (“think different”, remember?).
So, it’s just normal Apple behaviour. Expecting anything different is not knowing what Apple really is. Fortunately, the EU thinks doing things “the Apple way” is no longer valid, and is forcing them to adopt standards, and don’t abuse their position. But they’re doing it reluctantly, complaining, and putting a fight.
While the bit about file interoperability may be more windows-specific, there is such a thing as the “PC Ecosystem”. The software has alternatives: dominated by DOS, then Windows, but also available are Linux and the various minor UNIX-likes, but the hardware really is a specific ecosystem based on a specific set of standards.
There is truth in what you’re saying, but I think it’s missing a lot of nuance especially when it comes to why a lot of the things you’re saying are true. A few quick things:
instead of going with DOS
Apple developed the original Mac OS to be the first major GUI OS, and MS was left struggling to catch up. Going with DOS would have been a major step back, and set computing back significantly.
always been isolated from the PC ecosystem.
which was originally more to do with IBM than Apple.
You could barely read PC files, and most PCs couldn’t read Mac files without external software until Apple changed to Mac OS X in 2001.
This was less because Apple wanted it to be that way, and more because Microsoft wanted it that way. The reason things switched in 2001 isn’t specifically because of OS X, it’s because Apple did a deal with MS in '99 or so (and MS only did it likely to avoid more regulatory scrutiny after losing an anti-trust case) and part of that deal was more interoperability. Apple had advertising campaigns basically saying “don’t worry, you can switch to Mac and bring your files with you.”
They’re doing nothing different from when they started.
This is also true, but again misses a crucial piece of context - they do it that way because they think it’s generally better and makes better products, and I think you’d generally have to be pretty unstable to argue otherwise. Think about snapshots in time - in the 80’s when it was DOS and original Mac OS. Do our computers look and work like DOS or Mac now? Compare modern laptops to a '94 powerbook or whatever was on the PC market. The modern phone and the modern OS compared to what came before iPhone. Or take a gander what Android looked like pre/post iPhone announcement; spoilers, it was a blackberry knock off instead of an iPhone knock off.) Even Windows today looks and acts more like macOS than it has since probably the 3.1 days.
Even some of the more seemingly shitty decisions follow this pattern. Remember, iMessage came out at a time when messages cost either $5-20 for what would now seem like an absurdly small block of messages a month or $0.10 a message. Its initial value prop was that it was stupid to pay that much and if you bought an iPhone you could cut your bill way down. Or Lightning instead of micro USB. MicroUSB couldn’t fulfill all of the functions Lightning could, and it’s a worse connector for a lot of reasons.
I mean, that said, iMessage was definitely designed to keep you on iPhone and it’s being deliberately used as lock in, and there are plenty of other shitty things about Apple (like any other corp) but the virulence with which people hate it is often just because they do not get it any more than I see people mindlessly bash Linux usually with insults that haven’t been true since 2006.
The locking down started with the original MacIntosh (or actually with the Lisa I guess). ISTR they had at least one bit more open period after that, but those have always been the exception.
Really? Why is that? Why you can’t compare two instant messaging apps? What is so hilarious?
Btw, WhatsApp was made by a different company, and then bought by Meta, when it was already the most used instant messaging app in the EU. And it has a lot of really nice features. There’s a reason so many people use it.
e2ee means the message text is encrypted. Obviously metadata isnt as you cant hide where you want your message to be delivered to or what time it is sent.
Wouldn’t it be more correct to say that most Americans also use a messaging app (iMessage). The rest are just stuck with SMS to have compatibility with the iPhone users.
As the iPhone was (is?) not as popular in the Europe as it was (is) in the States that might also be one of the reasons why people here ditched SMS so fast once smartphones got popular.
But it’s not “most”, it’s more like half of Americans use iMessage (that’s not an app, it’s a service, the app is called Messages), and the other half uses SMS with different apps.
The factor that moved people away from SMS in the EU was telecom companies charging for it. SMS is virtually free for telecom companies, but European companies got greedy, and people moved to WhatsApp. They tried to block it, but accepted defeat after a while.
In the US, SMS is free with your phone plan, and it became popular with young people until iMessage appeared. Since iPhones are still subsidized by US telcos (afaik, correct me if I’m wrong), a lot of young people have iPhones and use iMessage, that’s far superior to SMS.
“Android users’ hopes that Apple’s iMessage would be forced to open up in the European Union have been dashed. Bloomberg reports that iMessage won’t qualify for the EU’s new “Digital Markets Act,” allowing Apple to keep iMessage exclusive to Apple users.
…”
Same here, I also have every single one of those. I’ve found that Telegram has become better than WhatsApp with their continuous improvements but not many people want to use it even after they download it “because nobody else uses it”. 🙃
Honestly, people just know that blue = better quality, reaction emojis, and editing. They don’t know why that’s actually the case. Most laypeople don’t know a lick about things like RCS, E2EE, etc.
It’s not that they’re apple superfans that makes then like that or course, they’re apple obsessed because they’re fully brought into conspicuous consumerism - they love that apple is over priced and feature limited because it’s a way of demonstrating their excess wealth.
Airlines are big on this with their ‘show the world you’re special by spending more than most people do on their whole holiday just to get a slightly bigger seat and complementary drinks that you could have brought for twenty dollars.’ the same with cars that inexplicably cost the same as a house and why people need to have this year’s overpriced car.
Apple not being laughed out of existence is a symptom of our broken society, and yes I know people are going to tell me that they have some obscene reason for using apple but that’s just the very human trait of posthoc justification and rationalization of a choice made emotionally.
I had an arcos jukebox before the first iPod came out, every time they’d release a new version it’s big feature would be something my jukebox had always done. Except it didn’t have an awkward spinning selector wheel or celebrity endorsements.
I could connect it to the cd player and record the whole thing as mp3s, I think it even used to split the tracks automatically but I might be wrong. Plug it into usb and it’s a HDD ready to have anything copied to it without hassle… No need for shitty iTunes, no complaints about wav files and never found an MP3 it couldn’t play.
I remember thinking that surely people will realize over priced and feature limited products are an insult but no, the kids of the future I had so much hope for turned out to be gen z who care more about brand recognition than anyone ever before. I still think the feature rich generics will have their day, maybe generation alpha…
Say what you want, but the iPod click wheel was anything but awkward. It was the most approachable and efficient interface and hardware on the market by miles and miles. Navigating other similar devices without it is an awful experience of buttons and layered menus that feel clunky and slow.
I won’t deny that the Arcos and other jukeboxes were incredible devices, but they lacked accessibility and mass appeal. Their size and expense kept most people from even considering getting one. They were absolutely an enthusiast’s device and nothing more.
The iPod ushered in the boom of portable media players and paved the road for Apple’s performance in the mobile phone space by establishing them as purveyors of a superior form factor and experience when it came to those devices. Apple owes its continued success in its personal computer and tablet product lines to the iPod’s design and their decision to focus on creating a cohesive ecosystem across their products based on those design principles.
Apples was and is still extremely anti-competitive and anti-consumers oriented.
Apple has always been a closed ecosystem, doing things “their way”. When they only sold computers, it was a niche company, with a niche audience. Then they started selling music players and phones, and they became a popular company.
The blue vs green bubble is just an American problem, that still use SMS as their main messaging protocol. The rest of the world use messaging app, like WhatsApp. It’s truly fascinating watching these events from outside the US.
As a German I see more glances of WhatsApp on iPhones than iMessage.
But I have to be honest: The video call is very neat in the Apple ecosystem.
We are lucky the EU is forcing them to adopt standards and not abuse their power. Maybe we’ll see some progress. New iPhones coming with USB-C is a good start and, ironically, I think it will make them sell more phones. But regarding blue vs green bubbles, the massive adoption of WhatsApp in the EU (fuelled by the greed of European Telcos charging per SMS) made us immune to this discussion.
I actually had no idea until now that anyone still charged money for SMS, outside the U.S. or otherwise.
I just looked at a mobile plan in Movistar (Spain). The page is in Spanish, but I guess you can understand the part I marked in red.
Well, seeing as I pay $90 a month for my phone with Verizon, I would burn everything down if they tried charging me for SMS. Hypothetically.
For that for now.
I am looking forward to how it will progress.
So far I felt like we are doing a downward trend towards the US style of living.
It’s interesting: in all my ignorance, my perception is that it’s the Germans the ones that feel more and more like the Americans (other than the British). But it may be just a wrong perception on my part. I honestly don’t know for certain.
Edit: a small note: you still gave the Greens and the Pirate Party to the EU Parliament, that are the best thing to ever happen to it. :D
Originally they focused on computers that could do more for less. They encouraged people to open them up and upgrade or mod them.
It wasn’t till the 2000’s that they started locking everything down.
But remember: instead of going with DOS, or a PC compatible system, they developed their own OS. It’s always been closed. And doing things “their way”.
I’ve been a Mac user for more than 30 years, and I’ve always been isolated from the PC ecosystem. No PC Card was ever usable with a Mac, until they changed to Intel processors in 2005, and even then, you didn’t have drivers for those, you have to rely on some outside development. You could barely read PC files, and most PCs couldn’t read Mac files without external software until Apple changed to Mac OS X in 2001. PC peripherals were incompatible (different connectors and electrical requirements) until Apple introduced USB with the iMac in 1998 (and the PC ecosystem caught up with it).
While Macs were (somewhat) upgradeable, you needed to buy Mac specific parts to do it, made by Apple approved vendors.
So, It’s always been a walled garden. I know, I was there before the iPhone, before the iPod. They’re doing nothing different from when they started. The difference is in society: internet appeared, and we now expect everything to work with everything. We expect to be interconnected. But Apple? They always liked to be their own thing, to be different (“think different”, remember?).
So, it’s just normal Apple behaviour. Expecting anything different is not knowing what Apple really is. Fortunately, the EU thinks doing things “the Apple way” is no longer valid, and is forcing them to adopt standards, and don’t abuse their position. But they’re doing it reluctantly, complaining, and putting a fight.
The way you use “PC” as a synonym for “Windows” proves that you are indeed a long term Mac user.
…and an old fart, hahaha!
At least you didn’t call them IBMs
Of course, they are IBM compatibles!
While the bit about file interoperability may be more windows-specific, there is such a thing as the “PC Ecosystem”. The software has alternatives: dominated by DOS, then Windows, but also available are Linux and the various minor UNIX-likes, but the hardware really is a specific ecosystem based on a specific set of standards.
Shhh! Don’t upset them, they don’t know!
There is truth in what you’re saying, but I think it’s missing a lot of nuance especially when it comes to why a lot of the things you’re saying are true. A few quick things:
Apple developed the original Mac OS to be the first major GUI OS, and MS was left struggling to catch up. Going with DOS would have been a major step back, and set computing back significantly.
which was originally more to do with IBM than Apple.
This was less because Apple wanted it to be that way, and more because Microsoft wanted it that way. The reason things switched in 2001 isn’t specifically because of OS X, it’s because Apple did a deal with MS in '99 or so (and MS only did it likely to avoid more regulatory scrutiny after losing an anti-trust case) and part of that deal was more interoperability. Apple had advertising campaigns basically saying “don’t worry, you can switch to Mac and bring your files with you.”
This is also true, but again misses a crucial piece of context - they do it that way because they think it’s generally better and makes better products, and I think you’d generally have to be pretty unstable to argue otherwise. Think about snapshots in time - in the 80’s when it was DOS and original Mac OS. Do our computers look and work like DOS or Mac now? Compare modern laptops to a '94 powerbook or whatever was on the PC market. The modern phone and the modern OS compared to what came before iPhone. Or take a gander what Android looked like pre/post iPhone announcement; spoilers, it was a blackberry knock off instead of an iPhone knock off.) Even Windows today looks and acts more like macOS than it has since probably the 3.1 days.
Even some of the more seemingly shitty decisions follow this pattern. Remember, iMessage came out at a time when messages cost either $5-20 for what would now seem like an absurdly small block of messages a month or $0.10 a message. Its initial value prop was that it was stupid to pay that much and if you bought an iPhone you could cut your bill way down. Or Lightning instead of micro USB. MicroUSB couldn’t fulfill all of the functions Lightning could, and it’s a worse connector for a lot of reasons.
I mean, that said, iMessage was definitely designed to keep you on iPhone and it’s being deliberately used as lock in, and there are plenty of other shitty things about Apple (like any other corp) but the virulence with which people hate it is often just because they do not get it any more than I see people mindlessly bash Linux usually with insults that haven’t been true since 2006.
Truly you are a sage!
The locking down started with the original MacIntosh (or actually with the Lisa I guess). ISTR they had at least one bit more open period after that, but those have always been the exception.
Not really, they’ve always been big on being incompatible for the sake of locking in people: adb, FireWire, iPod requiring iTunes, etc.
But also comparing an apple owned app to a Facebook owned app is hilarious.
Really? Why is that? Why you can’t compare two instant messaging apps? What is so hilarious?
Btw, WhatsApp was made by a different company, and then bought by Meta, when it was already the most used instant messaging app in the EU. And it has a lot of really nice features. There’s a reason so many people use it.
Yes, I know all of this. What do you think meta is doing with all that data?
You mean all that metadata? As far as we know, all messages are e2e encrypted and no one has proven it otherwise.
e2ee means the message text is encrypted. Obviously metadata isnt as you cant hide where you want your message to be delivered to or what time it is sent.
Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. The only available information is the metadata, not messages
Wouldn’t it be more correct to say that most Americans also use a messaging app (iMessage). The rest are just stuck with SMS to have compatibility with the iPhone users.
As the iPhone was (is?) not as popular in the Europe as it was (is) in the States that might also be one of the reasons why people here ditched SMS so fast once smartphones got popular.
But it’s not “most”, it’s more like half of Americans use iMessage (that’s not an app, it’s a service, the app is called Messages), and the other half uses SMS with different apps.
The factor that moved people away from SMS in the EU was telecom companies charging for it. SMS is virtually free for telecom companies, but European companies got greedy, and people moved to WhatsApp. They tried to block it, but accepted defeat after a while.
In the US, SMS is free with your phone plan, and it became popular with young people until iMessage appeared. Since iPhones are still subsidized by US telcos (afaik, correct me if I’m wrong), a lot of young people have iPhones and use iMessage, that’s far superior to SMS.
Remember this is the same company that has to either comply with the EU bridging regulation between messaging platforms or withdraw from the market.
I think they dodged that as well… https://arstechnica.com/?p=1989111
“Android users’ hopes that Apple’s iMessage would be forced to open up in the European Union have been dashed. Bloomberg reports that iMessage won’t qualify for the EU’s new “Digital Markets Act,” allowing Apple to keep iMessage exclusive to Apple users. …”
They skipped by the skin of their teeth. For now…
Basically because nobody in Europe uses iMessage. This is a WhatsApp town.
Speak for yourself. I’m a Signal user.
I have all of them (telegram, signal, whatsapp) but I’m basically forced to have whatsapp
So, you’ll be one of those thankful for the protocol bridgw.
I wish i could use only signal, yes
Same here, I also have every single one of those. I’ve found that Telegram has become better than WhatsApp with their continuous improvements but not many people want to use it even after they download it “because nobody else uses it”. 🙃
Apple fanboys don’t care one bit. As long as they can look cool and feel like part of the cool kids, they’ll buy.
Only poor people flaunt their mobile phones.
Judging by Apple ownership, it’s not only poor people…
Didn’t they make one covered in diamonds? You’ve been watching too many of those ‘rich Vs really rich’ tiktoks
Honestly, people just know that blue = better quality, reaction emojis, and editing. They don’t know why that’s actually the case. Most laypeople don’t know a lick about things like RCS, E2EE, etc.
It’s not that they’re apple superfans that makes then like that or course, they’re apple obsessed because they’re fully brought into conspicuous consumerism - they love that apple is over priced and feature limited because it’s a way of demonstrating their excess wealth.
Airlines are big on this with their ‘show the world you’re special by spending more than most people do on their whole holiday just to get a slightly bigger seat and complementary drinks that you could have brought for twenty dollars.’ the same with cars that inexplicably cost the same as a house and why people need to have this year’s overpriced car.
Apple not being laughed out of existence is a symptom of our broken society, and yes I know people are going to tell me that they have some obscene reason for using apple but that’s just the very human trait of posthoc justification and rationalization of a choice made emotionally.
I’m certain you developed this astute perspective after a thorough and unbiased evaluation of the Apple ecosystem from a user perspective
I remember in the ipod days plugging a CD into the aul PC and ripping all the files as aac… A format that would only play in iTunes
I had an arcos jukebox before the first iPod came out, every time they’d release a new version it’s big feature would be something my jukebox had always done. Except it didn’t have an awkward spinning selector wheel or celebrity endorsements.
I could connect it to the cd player and record the whole thing as mp3s, I think it even used to split the tracks automatically but I might be wrong. Plug it into usb and it’s a HDD ready to have anything copied to it without hassle… No need for shitty iTunes, no complaints about wav files and never found an MP3 it couldn’t play.
I remember thinking that surely people will realize over priced and feature limited products are an insult but no, the kids of the future I had so much hope for turned out to be gen z who care more about brand recognition than anyone ever before. I still think the feature rich generics will have their day, maybe generation alpha…
“Awkward spinning selector wheel”
Say what you want, but the iPod click wheel was anything but awkward. It was the most approachable and efficient interface and hardware on the market by miles and miles. Navigating other similar devices without it is an awful experience of buttons and layered menus that feel clunky and slow.
I won’t deny that the Arcos and other jukeboxes were incredible devices, but they lacked accessibility and mass appeal. Their size and expense kept most people from even considering getting one. They were absolutely an enthusiast’s device and nothing more.
The iPod ushered in the boom of portable media players and paved the road for Apple’s performance in the mobile phone space by establishing them as purveyors of a superior form factor and experience when it came to those devices. Apple owes its continued success in its personal computer and tablet product lines to the iPod’s design and their decision to focus on creating a cohesive ecosystem across their products based on those design principles.