In 1998, 48% of respondents in one survey said they never used the internet. Just a few years later, weekly use was growing more normal. Now, it’s everywhere, all the time.
I think there is no possible world where people are without meaningful work and are happy about it. Even if they collected $10,000 a month and got to spend all of their time doing hobbies and spending time with family, it would feel pointless and hollow. Why have a family? Why raise children? Why do anything if there’s no struggle, if you’re not the one providing for your kids? I think if AI replaces humans in the workplace, even with UBI, humans would cease to exist shortly thereafter as our lives will have become meaningless
I think people would find new ways to struggle that they actually enjoy and would likely end up contributing. Imagine a couple of thousand people with their new modest but stress free budgets decide to join a yearly potato cannon contest, Sure its not going to invent anything new directly but you now have a bunch of people learning about ballistics and stoichiometry and high pressure engineering all egging eachother on to shoot that potato further. The competition gets more and more fierce and with the much lower stakes people start trying some more out there ideas, before you know it you have a modest but highly effective solution to reliably obtaining the correct gas mixture for something like a combined light gas gun.
And that’s a deliberately silly example, you’d get a ton more art, people deciding to be athletes, coders, all sorts of hobies that can encourage healthy competition and often benefit society in surprising ways.
Get some annoying trust fund kid, take all their money away from them, and tell them that they now have to get a job but it’s a good thing because now their life has meaning. Let’s see how happy they are about it.
I don’t know how you’ve managed it but you’ve managed to invent toxic-domestication, The idea that someone’s life can’t be worth living unless they are working. I don’t know maybe you’re young but when you get to your 40s you begin to realise that actually what you really want out of life is just to be left alone, you really aren’t craving notoriety. If you can just sit in the hobby room and build airfix models or whatever then go to the pub, for the next 40 years you’d be happy.
I really don’t know why you’re arguing about this because there have been actual experiments where people have been given UBI and pretty much everyone ends up just going and doing their own stuff. I’ve never heard of anyone complaining about being given free money.
If we did UBI today, then yeah, I see people finding roles for themselves in society that aren’t measured by dollars. I mean if we live in a world where AI has replaced not just coding jobs but has basically replaced all jobs. Cooking, cleaning, factories, farming, etc.
I dont see a point in such a world. What am I contributing? Not to my employer; what am I contributing to my family? What is my job if not to provide for my family?
Define “being useless”. It certainly seems that “being useless”, to you, it is either “not working” or “not creating monetary value”, which would be super ironic given that there are many jobs around the world that make the person feel useless or worse
I’d say that anyone that feels the need to define themselves “by their role” has no clue on who they are or can be, needing the rest of society to direct them
I don’t and I bet many people don’t as well. I define myself by what I know, who I know, what I believe, like and dislike, have done and can do. Roles can be assigned, but they only serve as oversimplifications of what’s expected of people. The role of “mother” only means that a woman has one or more children. Whether said children are blood related, adopted, whether she’s a “good” or “bad” mother, whether she’s married, widow, single, etc etc, is up in the air.
Your second argument there doesn’t need roles to be answered either, or do you think only specific roles can help people? Life isn’t an RPG with clear-cut classes
I was paraphrasing and trying to be nice. Fine, you didn’t say humans yearn for the workplace. You said humans existentially require the workplace.
I think if AI replaces humans in the workplace, even with UBI, humans would cease to exist shortly thereafter as our lives will have become meaningless
Even if so - the definition of oneself is what that person gets paid for, not what that person enjoys doing (or even is just good at)?
(Especially with jobs, folk on LinkedIn will describe their job as anything but their actual everyday job, or lie/exaggerate about their job when with other people - so not even that “role” is true.)
… like, lmao, except if it’s like a weird grinding kink or something.
I think there is no possible world where people are without meaningful work and are happy about it.
–>
Even if they collected $10,000 a month and got to spend all of their time doing hobbies and spending time with family, it would feel pointless and hollow.
What is the difference between “hobby” and “work” if not what random people decide what is better monetised?
Both is labour & value added.
In a world where everyone gets enough money people could do what they actually want. So a CEO wouldn’t be “stuck” being a CEO if they don’t like that job & would rather be eg a baker. In the current system bcs of a huge pay divergence you get an unhappy CEO (who ofc won’t quit) and an unhappy baker that just couldn’t get a more suited paying job.
But we as a society would get a lot more out of life & cultural progression if people would be happy & satisfied at what they do (job=hobby).
Empirical evidence (even USA did extensive tests in the 60s) show that given a universal income (so basically no scarcity) basically nobody just sits around watching TV all day, everyone is productive (research, art, services, etc).
Imagine only having customer support or food industry workers that truly enjoy their job & want to do it.
How many prodigies are stuck at random dead end jobs with no prospects and life options?
Labour is what we all benefit from.
Work is what the employer/owner benefits from.
I think there is no possible world where people are without meaningful work and are happy about it. Even if they collected $10,000 a month and got to spend all of their time doing hobbies and spending time with family, it would feel pointless and hollow. Why have a family? Why raise children? Why do anything if there’s no struggle, if you’re not the one providing for your kids? I think if AI replaces humans in the workplace, even with UBI, humans would cease to exist shortly thereafter as our lives will have become meaningless
You’re so right, how can I find meaning without making somebody else’s money for them? Woe is me…
It’s not about making money, it’s about contributing to society, supporting your family. Being useful
I think people would find new ways to struggle that they actually enjoy and would likely end up contributing. Imagine a couple of thousand people with their new modest but stress free budgets decide to join a yearly potato cannon contest, Sure its not going to invent anything new directly but you now have a bunch of people learning about ballistics and stoichiometry and high pressure engineering all egging eachother on to shoot that potato further. The competition gets more and more fierce and with the much lower stakes people start trying some more out there ideas, before you know it you have a modest but highly effective solution to reliably obtaining the correct gas mixture for something like a combined light gas gun.
And that’s a deliberately silly example, you’d get a ton more art, people deciding to be athletes, coders, all sorts of hobies that can encourage healthy competition and often benefit society in surprising ways.
Okay let’s do an experiment.
Get some annoying trust fund kid, take all their money away from them, and tell them that they now have to get a job but it’s a good thing because now their life has meaning. Let’s see how happy they are about it.
How about you give them a wife and kids to take care of at the same time. Life would feel pretty pointless if I was only working to support myself
I don’t know how you’ve managed it but you’ve managed to invent toxic-domestication, The idea that someone’s life can’t be worth living unless they are working. I don’t know maybe you’re young but when you get to your 40s you begin to realise that actually what you really want out of life is just to be left alone, you really aren’t craving notoriety. If you can just sit in the hobby room and build airfix models or whatever then go to the pub, for the next 40 years you’d be happy.
I really don’t know why you’re arguing about this because there have been actual experiments where people have been given UBI and pretty much everyone ends up just going and doing their own stuff. I’ve never heard of anyone complaining about being given free money.
If we did UBI today, then yeah, I see people finding roles for themselves in society that aren’t measured by dollars. I mean if we live in a world where AI has replaced not just coding jobs but has basically replaced all jobs. Cooking, cleaning, factories, farming, etc.
I dont see a point in such a world. What am I contributing? Not to my employer; what am I contributing to my family? What is my job if not to provide for my family?
You serious?
Yes, I think people define themselves by their roles, especially men
You have a very limited view of what life should, or even can be.
It’s not a normative statement. I don’t necessarily think it’s good. I just don’t think people can be happy being useless
Define “being useless”. It certainly seems that “being useless”, to you, it is either “not working” or “not creating monetary value”, which would be super ironic given that there are many jobs around the world that make the person feel useless or worse
I’d say that anyone that feels the need to define themselves “by their role” has no clue on who they are or can be, needing the rest of society to direct them
Everyone defines themselves by their role. If you’re only living for yourself, not helping anyone or doing anything for anyone else, why live?
I don’t and I bet many people don’t as well. I define myself by what I know, who I know, what I believe, like and dislike, have done and can do. Roles can be assigned, but they only serve as oversimplifications of what’s expected of people. The role of “mother” only means that a woman has one or more children. Whether said children are blood related, adopted, whether she’s a “good” or “bad” mother, whether she’s married, widow, single, etc etc, is up in the air.
Your second argument there doesn’t need roles to be answered either, or do you think only specific roles can help people? Life isn’t an RPG with clear-cut classes
People are being harsh with the downvotes but I get what you mean. I get bored and restless doing nothing productive for long lengths of time.
I’m also guessing you don’t mean a 40 hour grind where all the profit goes to a small group of individuals in your example.
If I was told I could work or study but didn’t have to and it was public profits, I’d probably still end up doing a 20-25 hours a week in something.
You are a bit harsh with it though. I wouldn’t say just family and hobbies is hollow.
You said people yearn for “the workplace”
No I didn’t
I was paraphrasing and trying to be nice. Fine, you didn’t say humans yearn for the workplace. You said humans existentially require the workplace.
That’s a sign of toxic culture, not of men wanting to be defined by what value they can bring.
*monetary value
(in relation to toxic culture)
(bcs value that people actuality bring to society often isn’t fairly valued in terms of money or even not at all)
No it’s biology
Even if so - the definition of oneself is what that person gets paid for, not what that person enjoys doing (or even is just good at)?
(Especially with jobs, folk on LinkedIn will describe their job as anything but their actual everyday job, or lie/exaggerate about their job when with other people - so not even that “role” is true.)
… like, lmao, except if it’s like a weird grinding kink or something.
–>
What is the difference between “hobby” and “work” if not what random people decide what is better monetised?
Both is labour & value added.
In a world where everyone gets enough money people could do what they actually want. So a CEO wouldn’t be “stuck” being a CEO if they don’t like that job & would rather be eg a baker. In the current system bcs of a huge pay divergence you get an unhappy CEO (who ofc won’t quit) and an unhappy baker that just couldn’t get a more suited paying job.
But we as a society would get a lot more out of life & cultural progression if people would be happy & satisfied at what they do (job=hobby).
Empirical evidence (even USA did extensive tests in the 60s) show that given a universal income (so basically no scarcity) basically nobody just sits around watching TV all day, everyone is productive (research, art, services, etc).
Imagine only having customer support or food industry workers that truly enjoy their job & want to do it.
How many prodigies are stuck at random dead end jobs with no prospects and life options?
Labour is what we all benefit from.
Work is what the employer/owner benefits from.