Exactly. Scam websites can be casinos or shops or anything.
Ok, you understand that this is a completely different set of businesses compared to established casino business, right?
Talking about scam website to infer things about the “real” counterparts doesn’t make much sense. Yes, there is scam-everything. Doesn’t mean “shops are scam”, because there are shops which scam people. So when I talk about online casinos, I refer to the legitimate businesses that are gambling businesses, not scam organizations that happen to use gambling as their cover.
In any case, licenses are a very effective way to protect yourself from scammers.
Casinos, on and offline, are excellent ways to launder. The amount of regulations trying to mitigate this risk proves my point.
As all systems that allow to move money, they are excellent vectors, but doesn’t mean they are excellent ways to launder money. Regulations prevent money laundering (or strongly mitigating), which makes them less and less viable for laundering. I specifically talk about online casinos, since cash is not an option.
Not for casinos. Gambling addiction is a casino’s main business. Why are there no windows in Vegas?
Online and physical casinos are different and they comply with different regulations. In online casinos for example it might be mandatory to limit session duration, show popups every X minutes to inform about losses and duration of the session etc., depending on licenses. These are just responsible gaming measures enforced by licenses (in this case the Maltese, which is a very common one), which do not apply to physical casinos.
Yes. Online you can scam many more people with fake roulette tables.
So, this is the crux of the problem: your definition of scamming seems to be variable. There are only two options:
The casino game works according to specifics
The casino game is rigged, meaning it provides better odds to the host compared to its specifics
Both of them provide revenue for the host, with the second being marginally higher (you can’t have 80% margin, people won’t play). The second though has the problem that it won’t pass certification, so the only way to serve it is on unlicensed sites. Being unlicensed makes it impossible to access whole markets. So, why companies should go for the second and not the first, when even the first is providing money and a bigger pool of players?
To support your claim, maybe you can list a bunch of articles about casinos getting caught with rigged games that were licensed? I did a quick search and nothing popped up immediately (although they might exist, and it’s a good thing they got caught, which shows controls work).
Betfair, betfred, bet356, Ladbrokes etc.
As a user? Because that doesn’t tell much.
Anyway, bet365 has a casino, do you trust it?
“What I mean by this is my friend is a new bettor, we sit side by side watching the same games at the same time, and the odds are much worse for me. It will show -100000 on my screen and shows -8000 on my friends screen”
All betting sites have blacklists of customers taking advantage of arbitrage between sites.
Here are some common online betting scams copied from quora.
Fake Betting Sites: Scammers create fake betting websites that appear legitimate but are designed to steal your personal and financial information. Always ensure you’re using reputable and licensed betting sites.
Phishing: Scammers send fraudulent emails or messages claiming to be from legitimate betting sites, asking for your login details, password, or payment information. Never share sensitive information through email or messages.
Too Good to Be True Offers: Scammers may promise guaranteed wins or insider information for a fee. They might also offer bonuses that seem too good to be true. These offers are often designed to take your money without delivering results.
Tipster Scams: Some scammers pose as expert tipsters or handicappers, offering betting tips or predictions for a fee. They may manipulate their records to show past success, but their actual tips might not yield positive results.
Unregulated Casinos: Betting on unregulated or unlicensed casinos can put your money and personal information at risk. Always choose licensed and regulated casinos and sportsbooks.
Rigged Games: In some cases, illegitimate gambling sites may manipulate game outcomes to ensure players lose. Stick to reputable sites that use random number generators and undergo regular audits.
Payment Scams: Scammers may ask for upfront payment to access their “winning system” or betting tips. Legitimate services do not require upfront payments for access to tips.
Match-Fixing Scams: Some scammers claim to have inside information about match-fixing or rigged games and offer to sell this information. This is often a ploy to steal your money.
Identity Theft: Scammers might impersonate betting sites to collect personal information for identity theft. Always ensure you’re on a secure and legitimate site.
Unfair Terms and Conditions: Some betting sites have complex or unfair terms and conditions that make it difficult to withdraw winnings or bonuses. Always read the terms before betting.
From the user perspective they are the same. A scam casino is much easier to create than a scam Nike shop.
it’s not. Creating a game is much more complex than putting a bunch of images and text on a web page. Also in order to play casino games you need to deposit money, so you need to also develop that part, a scan shop can simply spoof the payment window and steal the card directly…
Not if the licence is fake.
If you got to know about the casino, chances are it’s a legitimate business. It doesn’t take a PhD also to just double check the website. If you are looking for casinos online digging in the internet, rather than surfing the most prominent businesses, then yes. If you just pick the mainstream ones, you are covered. The chance you lose because the game is rigged is negligible. Also, you are putting money somewhere, you should make some basic checks (it’s enough a 10 second search for the license ID and check your regulator website).
“Might be mandatory” means that it might not be, and for certain casino operators don’t want it.
No, it means that it depends on licenses. Different licenses require different things. If you hold the Maltese license, you need to have it, period. Maybe there are licenses that don’t prescribe that particular thing, hence “might be”.
Yes. There is the objective “designed to steal” scamming and my subjective dislike of betting against a dressed up random number generator.
Games have to be random number generators lol. There is nothing to dress up, that’s exactly what playing casino games is like. It’s a RNG where you have the 50%-the margin chance to win.
This has nothing to do with scamming, or rigging games, which was your initial argument.
Lots of anecdotes along the lines of
Ok… lol
“What I mean by this is my friend is a new bettor, we sit side by side watching the same games at the same time, and the odds are much worse for me. It will show -100000 on my screen and shows -8000 on my friends screen”
Absolutely the bookie will know the customers and might apply different limits and different odds. If you are suspected being a part of a syndicate, for example, you will get worse odds.
This is not a scam, you see exactly what the odds are, it is not hidden from you. This applies to sportsbook, not casino.
All betting sites have blacklists of customers taking advantage of arbitrage between sites.
This has nothing to do with casino or scamming. Also, sure betters are generally not blacklisted, they simply get limits applied as anyway to make any kind of money you need high volumes. Again, what does this have to do with rigging games?
You can’t “rig” sportsbook, when you bet you see clearly what the odds are and you can compare and choose another provider with better odds.
Here are some common online betting scams copied from quora.
Wow, very useful dump.
Have you read the “rigged games” part?
Rigged Games: In some cases, illegitimate gambling sites may manipulate game outcomes to ensure players lose. Stick to reputable sites that use random number generators and undergo regular audits.
Note that 7/10 items in that list are simply scams by individuals targeting other individuals and have nothing to do with casinos.
The only relevant ones are:
Unregulated Casinos
Rigged Games
Unfair Terms and Conditions
The solution for the first 2 is to use licensed providers. The last one is absolutely true, usually in bigger or established businesses, but has nothing to do with rigging games.
Basically nothing of this info dump from Quora (for what is worth) corroborates your argument…
To be honest, is it so hard to admit that you simply don’t like gambling because it’s taking money from people who don’t know better? I agree with that myself, and it’s a sufficient criticism to dislike casinos. There is no need to make up totally false information to add arguments.
No, mainstream, reputable and licensed casinos will not rig games and steal money from you. Yes, they will take money from you in the majority of cases because games - all of them - are designed to benefit the house. No, they don’t help laundering money because in most cases they will get caught and lose the whole business, it’s very, very, very hard to hide activity when you have multiple regulators plus the usual government agencies look at your reports constantly, and all your transactions are tracked.
Creating a game is much more complex than putting a bunch of images and text on a web page.
That’s why scammers usually just pirate and hack small parts of the codebase.
Also in order to play casino games you need to deposit money, so you need to also develop that part, a scan shop can simply spoof the payment window and steal the card directly…
You don’t get as much money that way. Better to encourage larger deposits and “crash” when large withdrawals are requested.
If you got to know about the casino, chances are it’s a legitimate business.
Not necessarily. Popups and emails exist. Especially interesting if they offer free spins.
This has nothing to do with scamming, or rigging games, which was your initial argument.
The original question was “what is wrong with online casinos”. One answer I gave was scammers, then you pressed me for more.
Note that 7/10 items in that list are simply scams by individuals targeting other individuals and have nothing to do with casinos.
DUDE. This is the point. You can’t argue that online casinos are fine so long as you ignore all the bad casinos and scammers.
Unfair Terms and Conditions […] is absolutely true, usually in bigger or established businesses, but has nothing to do with rigging games.
Fuck me. You admit online casinos are unfair then immediately dismiss this as unimportant. Now I suspect I’m arguing against a paid troll.
That’s why scammers usually just pirate and hack small parts of the codebase.
Sure.
EDIT: I don’t even dignify with an answer “hack small parts of the codebase”. I can clearly see you have absolutely no clue of what you are talking about.
You don’t get as much money that way. Better to encourage larger deposits and “crash” when large withdrawals are requested.
Then this is not a rigged game. Again, you said that games are rigged to scam people…
Not necessarily. Popups and emails exist. Especially interesting if they offer free spins.
True, and that’s if the site find you, rather than viceversa. No different than phishing…
The original question was “what is wrong with online casinos”. One answer I gave was scammers, then you pressed me for more.
Your original answer was specific: rigged games and money laundering. None of which is generally true.
DUDE. This is the point. You can’t argue that online casinos are fine so long as you ignore all the bad casinos and scammers.
I already clarified what I consider an “online casino”. it’s irrelevant what a scam website is, it doesn’t say anything about the industry it tries to imitate…
Fuck me. You admit online casinos are unfair then immediately dismiss this as unimportant. Now I suspect I’m arguing against a paid troll.
Don’t move the goalpost. Some casinos use complicate T&C, this has nothing to do with rigging games.
Again, the fact that your arguments are hairdresser gossip doesn’t make me a paid troll. I know the industry and I can use facts to criticize it, which I do (I left it for a reason). You make stuff up and keep changing your argument…
Casino Scam Two: Rigged Games
This casino gaming scam is fairly simple. They run rigged games which let you win for a while, but ultimately rinse you of every penny. This one doesn’t require 4D chess or deviousness fit for a Bond villain, just good old-fashioned rigged software.
The scam casino software companies which create rigged games are fairly well-known by most people who play regularly online or work in the online betting industry. Respected casinos don’t work with them, and respected casino software companies don’t usually work with casinos that do. That’s an important thing to note, because it is the first step to avoiding rigged games. If you see Microgaming, Playtech, NetEnt, or other powerhouse casino software companies in the mix, it’s highly likely that you’re dealing with a legitimate online casino.
However, scam casino operators have gotten wise to this, and as a result, they run pirated versions of otherwise legit games. They’re much more difficult to spot for the untrained eye, because they are clones of the original games with a tweaked code to cheat you.
Dude, you are changing the argument again, as usual.
I got it. Yes, scam website exist. Yes, scan shop websites exist, as exist phishing banking sites, and a universe of things.
You said:
That’s why scammers usually just pirate and hack small parts of the codebase.
This is complete bullshit.
Pirating a game only means copying the look of a legitimate game served on “real” casinos. There is nothing to hack, because you don’t have the codebase. Netent, playtech, evolution, microgaming, they all serve their games via iframes or similar, they integrate with you via API, they whitelist your IPs or authenticate yourself with a token.
Scam casinos might simply look at real games and imitate them, exactly like you might do a fake shop and copy - say - Amazon’s look.
And for the 100th times, this is a negligible problem if you are playing on licensed websites, which in turn used licensed gaming providers.
You are conflating arguments that apply to scam website as if these apply to the wider industry, they don’t! If you are talking about banking, you wouldn’t say “banks steal your data”, because there are scammers that use bank websites to phish people. They are a completely different thing. So, as clear as it can be:
Some scammers might use casinos to scam people. They might spin up fake casino sites (UNLICENSED, of faking a license at most) where games are rigged. These casinos generally can’t advertise anywhere and they are luring people the same way phishing sites lure them in: Spam emails etc.
Rigged games are generally not a problem within the casino industry, as it’s not money laundering. Regulations apply to the vast majority of established businesses which prevent both quite effectively. This is why before putting money in a website you should spend 10 seconds and check that the website has a valid license (from your national authority). Once you have done this, you can stay with that website and be 99.9% sure that games are not rigged (i.e., they use RNG). You will still lose in the long run, but not because they are rigged.
Your source didn’t confirm in any way what you said. Making lookalikes have nothing to do with “hacking small parts of the codebase”.
Also the source itself is a random website lol
My argument is that casinos don’t need to scam by rigging games. A scam site is no more a casino than a phishing site is a banking site.
Do you think banking sites are scams?
Your initial statement was a blanket statement about casinos “rigging games” and “helping laundering money for a cut”. Now you are defending the hill that some scammers use casinos as their vector for scams, which is a completely different thing, that nobody questioned also. It simply has nothing to do with " casinos".
But I see you are one of those people who are clinically incapable of admitting you said something incorrect, even after you said tons of incorrect stuff and you showed to have a very superficial understanding of the gambling industry (my favorite was when you called games "dressed up RNGs, when they are required to be RNG by law, and you really want them to be…).
Ok, you understand that this is a completely different set of businesses compared to established casino business, right?
Talking about scam website to infer things about the “real” counterparts doesn’t make much sense. Yes, there is scam-everything. Doesn’t mean “shops are scam”, because there are shops which scam people. So when I talk about online casinos, I refer to the legitimate businesses that are gambling businesses, not scam organizations that happen to use gambling as their cover.
In any case, licenses are a very effective way to protect yourself from scammers.
As all systems that allow to move money, they are excellent vectors, but doesn’t mean they are excellent ways to launder money. Regulations prevent money laundering (or strongly mitigating), which makes them less and less viable for laundering. I specifically talk about online casinos, since cash is not an option.
Online and physical casinos are different and they comply with different regulations. In online casinos for example it might be mandatory to limit session duration, show popups every X minutes to inform about losses and duration of the session etc., depending on licenses. These are just responsible gaming measures enforced by licenses (in this case the Maltese, which is a very common one), which do not apply to physical casinos.
So, this is the crux of the problem: your definition of scamming seems to be variable. There are only two options:
Both of them provide revenue for the host, with the second being marginally higher (you can’t have 80% margin, people won’t play). The second though has the problem that it won’t pass certification, so the only way to serve it is on unlicensed sites. Being unlicensed makes it impossible to access whole markets. So, why companies should go for the second and not the first, when even the first is providing money and a bigger pool of players?
To support your claim, maybe you can list a bunch of articles about casinos getting caught with rigged games that were licensed? I did a quick search and nothing popped up immediately (although they might exist, and it’s a good thing they got caught, which shows controls work).
As a user? Because that doesn’t tell much. Anyway, bet365 has a casino, do you trust it?
From the user perspective they are the same. A scam casino is much easier to create than a scam Nike shop.
Not if the licence is fake.
“Might be mandatory” means that it might not be, and for certain casino operators don’t want it.
Yes. There is the objective “designed to steal” scamming and my subjective dislike of betting against a dressed up random number generator.
No. But that is my subjective dislike.
Lots of anecdotes along the lines of
“online slots usually let you go up a bit and are relatively generous for the first 20-30 minutes of play, then the odds drop drastically when the algorithms realize you’re hooked/chasing the dragon”
https://www.smithfieldtimes.com/2024/01/14/6-common-casino-scams-to-avoid-online/
https://morganfinancialrecovery.com/scams/online-casino-scams/
https://www.legitgamblingsites.com/blog/online-casino-scams-be-aware-of/
“What I mean by this is my friend is a new bettor, we sit side by side watching the same games at the same time, and the odds are much worse for me. It will show -100000 on my screen and shows -8000 on my friends screen”
All betting sites have blacklists of customers taking advantage of arbitrage between sites.
Here are some common online betting scams copied from quora.
Fake Betting Sites: Scammers create fake betting websites that appear legitimate but are designed to steal your personal and financial information. Always ensure you’re using reputable and licensed betting sites.
Phishing: Scammers send fraudulent emails or messages claiming to be from legitimate betting sites, asking for your login details, password, or payment information. Never share sensitive information through email or messages.
Too Good to Be True Offers: Scammers may promise guaranteed wins or insider information for a fee. They might also offer bonuses that seem too good to be true. These offers are often designed to take your money without delivering results.
Tipster Scams: Some scammers pose as expert tipsters or handicappers, offering betting tips or predictions for a fee. They may manipulate their records to show past success, but their actual tips might not yield positive results.
Unregulated Casinos: Betting on unregulated or unlicensed casinos can put your money and personal information at risk. Always choose licensed and regulated casinos and sportsbooks.
Rigged Games: In some cases, illegitimate gambling sites may manipulate game outcomes to ensure players lose. Stick to reputable sites that use random number generators and undergo regular audits.
Payment Scams: Scammers may ask for upfront payment to access their “winning system” or betting tips. Legitimate services do not require upfront payments for access to tips.
Match-Fixing Scams: Some scammers claim to have inside information about match-fixing or rigged games and offer to sell this information. This is often a ploy to steal your money.
Identity Theft: Scammers might impersonate betting sites to collect personal information for identity theft. Always ensure you’re on a secure and legitimate site.
Unfair Terms and Conditions: Some betting sites have complex or unfair terms and conditions that make it difficult to withdraw winnings or bonuses. Always read the terms before betting.
it’s not. Creating a game is much more complex than putting a bunch of images and text on a web page. Also in order to play casino games you need to deposit money, so you need to also develop that part, a scan shop can simply spoof the payment window and steal the card directly…
If you got to know about the casino, chances are it’s a legitimate business. It doesn’t take a PhD also to just double check the website. If you are looking for casinos online digging in the internet, rather than surfing the most prominent businesses, then yes. If you just pick the mainstream ones, you are covered. The chance you lose because the game is rigged is negligible. Also, you are putting money somewhere, you should make some basic checks (it’s enough a 10 second search for the license ID and check your regulator website).
No, it means that it depends on licenses. Different licenses require different things. If you hold the Maltese license, you need to have it, period. Maybe there are licenses that don’t prescribe that particular thing, hence “might be”.
Games have to be random number generators lol. There is nothing to dress up, that’s exactly what playing casino games is like. It’s a RNG where you have the 50%-the margin chance to win. This has nothing to do with scamming, or rigging games, which was your initial argument.
Ok… lol
Absolutely the bookie will know the customers and might apply different limits and different odds. If you are suspected being a part of a syndicate, for example, you will get worse odds. This is not a scam, you see exactly what the odds are, it is not hidden from you. This applies to sportsbook, not casino.
This has nothing to do with casino or scamming. Also, sure betters are generally not blacklisted, they simply get limits applied as anyway to make any kind of money you need high volumes. Again, what does this have to do with rigging games? You can’t “rig” sportsbook, when you bet you see clearly what the odds are and you can compare and choose another provider with better odds.
Wow, very useful dump. Have you read the “rigged games” part?
Note that 7/10 items in that list are simply scams by individuals targeting other individuals and have nothing to do with casinos. The only relevant ones are:
The solution for the first 2 is to use licensed providers. The last one is absolutely true, usually in bigger or established businesses, but has nothing to do with rigging games.
Basically nothing of this info dump from Quora (for what is worth) corroborates your argument…
To be honest, is it so hard to admit that you simply don’t like gambling because it’s taking money from people who don’t know better? I agree with that myself, and it’s a sufficient criticism to dislike casinos. There is no need to make up totally false information to add arguments.
No, mainstream, reputable and licensed casinos will not rig games and steal money from you. Yes, they will take money from you in the majority of cases because games - all of them - are designed to benefit the house. No, they don’t help laundering money because in most cases they will get caught and lose the whole business, it’s very, very, very hard to hide activity when you have multiple regulators plus the usual government agencies look at your reports constantly, and all your transactions are tracked.
That’s why scammers usually just pirate and hack small parts of the codebase.
You don’t get as much money that way. Better to encourage larger deposits and “crash” when large withdrawals are requested.
Not necessarily. Popups and emails exist. Especially interesting if they offer free spins.
The original question was “what is wrong with online casinos”. One answer I gave was scammers, then you pressed me for more.
DUDE. This is the point. You can’t argue that online casinos are fine so long as you ignore all the bad casinos and scammers.
Fuck me. You admit online casinos are unfair then immediately dismiss this as unimportant. Now I suspect I’m arguing against a paid troll.
Sure.
EDIT: I don’t even dignify with an answer “hack small parts of the codebase”. I can clearly see you have absolutely no clue of what you are talking about.
Then this is not a rigged game. Again, you said that games are rigged to scam people…
True, and that’s if the site find you, rather than viceversa. No different than phishing…
Your original answer was specific: rigged games and money laundering. None of which is generally true.
I already clarified what I consider an “online casino”. it’s irrelevant what a scam website is, it doesn’t say anything about the industry it tries to imitate…
Don’t move the goalpost. Some casinos use complicate T&C, this has nothing to do with rigging games.
Again, the fact that your arguments are hairdresser gossip doesn’t make me a paid troll. I know the industry and I can use facts to criticize it, which I do (I left it for a reason). You make stuff up and keep changing your argument…
Rigged games is the only point you want to address, then you fail to do so when given the opportunity.
https://www.legitgamblingsites.com/blog/online-casino-scams-be-aware-of/
Casino Scam Two: Rigged Games This casino gaming scam is fairly simple. They run rigged games which let you win for a while, but ultimately rinse you of every penny. This one doesn’t require 4D chess or deviousness fit for a Bond villain, just good old-fashioned rigged software.
The scam casino software companies which create rigged games are fairly well-known by most people who play regularly online or work in the online betting industry. Respected casinos don’t work with them, and respected casino software companies don’t usually work with casinos that do. That’s an important thing to note, because it is the first step to avoiding rigged games. If you see Microgaming, Playtech, NetEnt, or other powerhouse casino software companies in the mix, it’s highly likely that you’re dealing with a legitimate online casino.
However, scam casino operators have gotten wise to this, and as a result, they run pirated versions of otherwise legit games. They’re much more difficult to spot for the untrained eye, because they are clones of the original games with a tweaked code to cheat you.
Dude, you are changing the argument again, as usual.
I got it. Yes, scam website exist. Yes, scan shop websites exist, as exist phishing banking sites, and a universe of things.
You said:
This is complete bullshit.
Pirating a game only means copying the look of a legitimate game served on “real” casinos. There is nothing to hack, because you don’t have the codebase. Netent, playtech, evolution, microgaming, they all serve their games via iframes or similar, they integrate with you via API, they whitelist your IPs or authenticate yourself with a token. Scam casinos might simply look at real games and imitate them, exactly like you might do a fake shop and copy - say - Amazon’s look.
And for the 100th times, this is a negligible problem if you are playing on licensed websites, which in turn used licensed gaming providers.
You are conflating arguments that apply to scam website as if these apply to the wider industry, they don’t! If you are talking about banking, you wouldn’t say “banks steal your data”, because there are scammers that use bank websites to phish people. They are a completely different thing. So, as clear as it can be:
I can’t be clearer than this.
I linked to an external source showing it is not bullshit.
Your arguments for online casinos not being scams are based solely on excluding scams from your definition of online casinos.
Your source didn’t confirm in any way what you said. Making lookalikes have nothing to do with “hacking small parts of the codebase”.
Also the source itself is a random website lol
My argument is that casinos don’t need to scam by rigging games. A scam site is no more a casino than a phishing site is a banking site. Do you think banking sites are scams?
Your initial statement was a blanket statement about casinos “rigging games” and “helping laundering money for a cut”. Now you are defending the hill that some scammers use casinos as their vector for scams, which is a completely different thing, that nobody questioned also. It simply has nothing to do with " casinos".
But I see you are one of those people who are clinically incapable of admitting you said something incorrect, even after you said tons of incorrect stuff and you showed to have a very superficial understanding of the gambling industry (my favorite was when you called games "dressed up RNGs, when they are required to be RNG by law, and you really want them to be…).